Turbulence: A Moment of Silence, Please.


Can we talk for a minute? I mean crew to crew? If you’re not flightcrew, this may be boring. Sorry.

But still, let’s talk about not talking for a minute. Here’s the deal:

We’re flying along fat dumb and happy. Then, it gets bumpy. I turn the seatbelt sign on. What do you NOT do? Or more accurately, what do I wish you wouldn’t do?

Call the cockpit. Seriously. What we get more often than not these days is, bumps, then ding-ding. “It’s for you,” I say to the First Officer, even though I am monitoring the flight interphone in my headset. Then I get the thanks a lot look from the F/O who reluctantly picks up the phone.

But I already know what the flight attendant’s going to say: “How long is it going to be bumpy?” or worse, “it’s really bumpy back here.”

Sigh.

First off, besides being an inane question, it shows a real lack of understanding of what just happened, plus what needs to happen. To begin with, if we knew the turbulence was there ahead of time, do you really think we’d fly into it? And given that we didn’t know it was there, how the heck are we supposed to know how long whatever it is we didn’t know about is going to last?

And truly, is it possible that it’s bumpy in back but not in the cockpit, so you really need to call and let us know?

Worse, either of us having to answer the phone with “we have no idea” or “yeah, it’s bumpy up here too” only prolongs the turbulence. Why? Because here’s what has to happen to get out of turbulence.

First, I have to decide if we can climb or descend. Are we light enough for a higher altitude and at that altitude, what is the margin between high speed and low speed stall? That is, a higher altitude may be habitable in smooth air, but not in turbulence–yes, the charts are broken out into smooth, light, moderate and heavy turbulence because it affects both speed control and the airfoil. Given that we are in turbulence at this geographic location, there’s a darn good chance it extends above and below us here as well.

If the margin between high and low speed buffet–Coffin Corner, as it is known–is sufficiently wide in my judgment, then climbing is one option.

The other is descent but that has a catch as well. Yes, the Coffin Corner spread is more favorable. But now we have to worry about fuel burn, which is higher in the denser air of lower altitude–which is why we cruise at the optimum altitude for fuel burn and Coffin Corner spread. I have to calculate whether the increased fuel burn allows for sufficient arrival fuel to accommodate the destination situation–and that varies.

Going into Omaha? Seldom if ever an arrival delay. Atlanta? Chicago, La Garbage? Better have flexibility and loiter time–which means fuel. Plus, the destination weather: with a low ceiling and visibility, even Omaha isn’t a slam dunk.

The final gotcha about descending to a lower cruise altitude because of turbulence is the increased fuel burn it’s going to take to return to the optimum cruise altitude when it’s reported smooth again.

With me so far? Then we need to call air traffic control and find out the ride report and the winds at a higher or lower altitude. Why? because a higher (or sometimes lower) altitude can have a significantly larger headwind, which again affects fuel burn, never mind arrival time. Anyway, calling takes time, then it takes more time for Air Traffic Control (ATC) to find the info we’re asking for.

Once we know the winds and the reported ride conditions, it’s back to a decision about up or down, based on the fuel endurance and destination weather factors I just explained. That all takes time too.

Once we’ve determined the best option, we request a new altitude from ATC, then wait for them to coordinate a new altitude–which also often comes with a catch: sometimes, they’ll need you to turn off course to gain spacing from another aircraft either in the airspace we need to climb through or at the altitude we’ve requested. Again, more fuel. Can we do that?

And then there’s the climb or descent itself: it takes minutes even after the minutes of calculations, requests and clearances.

None of that starts till we’re off the phone with you. Because in a two-man cockpit, both of us must be fully in the decision loop, as well as the execution of the changes in altitude and heading. And even then, we may find the new altitude is not smooth either–in which case the whole process starts over.

You can trust me on this: once we encounter turbulence, we immediately go to work to find a better ride. But none of this happens while you’re calling us. And we’d do it whether you called or not–so don’t delay the process.

If you’ve ever flown with me, you know this: if I know of any turbulence ahead, I’ll call back and tell you to “grab yourself a buttload of jumpseat–she’s gonna buck.” If I haven’t told you and it is suddenly bumpy–grab yourself a buttload of jumpseat–and wait for us to start the process of finding smooth air.

We’re definitely aware of the turbulence and looking for smoother air. All we need is a moment of silence.

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85 Responses to “Turbulence: A Moment of Silence, Please.”

  1. Chris,

    This post is great. I’ve always assumed, I guess, that FA’s knew more about this type of situation as a result of flying so much. I wonder if some people imagine that out the front windshield, you have a view of what’s ahead, like a bumpy gravel road, that you could assess how much longer you’ll be on it. It’s not like that when the conditions causing turbulence are often invisible air! 🙂

  2. Debbie Tickle Says:

    Chris – mostly, I get this. I have to take issue, however, with “And truly, is it possible that it’s bumpy in back but not in the cockpit, so you really need to call and let us know?” On the 737, the answer to that question is a resounding YES! Ask any 737 FA and I believe you’ll get the same answer — many, many times we have been carrying on with our service in F/C while the F/As in the back have had to strap in and batten down — the 737 is notorious for pronounced sway/instability in the aft part of the cabin in even light chop or turbulence. On S80, this is not so much the case – it truly IS one of the features of the 73, along with A LOT fewer smooth landings than we experience on the S80.

    That said, I hear you: if you have turned on the seatbelt sign, you clearly know that it’s bumpy. However, I can’t count the number of times the CA has called to say “It won’t be any worse than this” and we just keep on keeping on – there IS some play between” F/A bumpy” and “passenger bumpy.”

    Also, hard though it may be to believe, I still spend a good amount of time visiting the cockpit. I have watched and listened to the process you so thoroughly describe here, but almost without exception, the very first thing that happens after you turn on the seatbelt sign and one of you report the chop at your altitude is a response that a/c ahead report it for another x# of minutes/miles. Before you start that very impressive sequence of corrections and calculations, ANY information you have about the severity and duration would be most helpful for the F/As.

    Our question, therefore, while inane, just comes from us trying to decide whether to bite the bullet and carry on or to “grab a buttload of jumpseat.” And, in some cases, we’re trying to decide whether to do a service at all. This is not directed at you, but if we could count on consistent communication from the cockpit re: this and any other thing about the flight that might affect us, I’m pretty sure we’d consistently grab the aforementioned buttload and wait for further instruction. Unfortunately, there is no consistency in terms of communication between cockpit and crew these days.

    THAT said, I know that YOU DO communicate! I guess I just want you to understand what drives the phenomenon of the post seatbelt sign “ding-a-lings”. However, know that I will take your information to heart and try to share it with my fellow F/As.

    Debbie

    P.S. I think your writings and posts on FB and this site about the airline industry are wonderful. Your non-airline friends are getting an insider’s look at our industry, and even I look forward to and enjoy your gorgeous photos and hilarious (and sometimes exasperated) musings about all aspects of our job.

    • Very good points, and I’ll pass them along to the folks on the front side of the cockpit door as well. Thanks for sharing them–exchanging ideas is good, we don’t do enough of it any more it seems between cockpit and cabin.

      I can understand why the ride’s worse in the back of the 737: so much of the fuselage is behind the wingroot, especially compared to the MD80, and the aft galley on the 737 is waaay aft, right up to the pressure bulkhead. The farther from the wingroot, the great the swing when there’s any lateral or vertical movement. The MD80’s the opposite: the cockpit was on the far end of the pivot arm and turbulence felt worse up front.

      Weird, too, but I find the 737 much easier to land smoothly than the MD-80. Hope to see you on a flight soon!

    • Not only a 737. Try a 777 or a 757. Those airplanes are much longer and can definitely have bumps in the back while all’s quiet up front!

  3. One of the differences between flying in the US and Europe I have experiences is that in the US, as soon as you get the slightest Jurassic Park ripples in your coffee, the seat-belt sign dings into life, whereas in Europe you’ll have said coffee on your pants before that thing lights up. Personally, I don’t have preferences either way — I tend to be in my seat with my seat-belt on, anyway, but I do wonder whether this difference is due to custom or airline regulations. Is it the aviator’s equivalent of the Caution! Hot! sign on the take-away coffee?

    • I think that’s exactly what it is. I know from my standpoint as captain I project forward from the first jiggle to myself on the stand in a civil trial for a passenger’s trauma and the first question asked of me will be “was the seatbelt sign on?” So it usually is on my jet, thanks to the guy who made his granny drive around town holding a cup of boiling McDonald’s take-out coffee between her legs until she inevitably crushed the cup and burned her unit to the tune of about $150,000 minus attorney’s fees.

      So now I’m very reluctant to turn the seatbelt sign off. She might be on board.

  4. Retired ATC Says:

    Surely not you, Captain, but I certainly talked to a few pilots who had not the first clue about turbulence. There were the days that the jet stream ran along J6 from PNH to LIT, and the MD-80 driver who is climbing to 330 asks how the ride is up there. I say, “continuous light, occasional moderate chop reported all altitudes FL290 through FL410.” “So is 310 or 350 any better?”

    YGBKM.

  5. Excellent post and relevant. Many years ago, the FA staff could be forgiven for not knowing the front end routine or understanding the Turb. Not so today! Most of the FAs are old enough to be your mother or – and many have more years/hours of tube riding than do the drivers. They DO know better, especially the senior ones – the only ones who ought to be in the interphone on the first place. Sure, they get inquiries from the PAX. Pretty simple answer: When the driver turns off the belt light, service will resume. Not before.
    -Craig

  6. As someone unaffiliated with air travel, I have to tell you: I laughed out loud while reading this post!

    Great humor, excellent explanation, awesome insights into the process. Thank you.

  7. Great post, I will be checking in frequently. I guess as an SLF it may be better to just stay strapped in and hang on a bit. I can understand the FA’s concern because they deal directly with the public, which can be a pain in the ass! In the future I could hang in the cockpit and answer the phone so you guys can fly the airplane….always wanted to fly up front!
    🙂

  8. “If you’re not flightcrew, this may be boring. Sorry.”

    Yes it was !

      • Not boring at all–love the way you casually describe complex and important decisions.

      • Definitely NOT boring, rather interesting actually – and completely relatable. As a manager of restaurant, I’ve received many inane questions that just hold me up when I need to get going on something. Yes, communication is important, because knowing the reasons behind the actions helps to facilitate…
        I think I may stick around here for awhile and see what else you post about – so far, I’m enjoying a view I wouldn’t normally get.
        Congrats on FP!

      • Thanks and welcome aboard.

  9. LOVE IT! It’s reminiscent of a family car trip with a kid who keeps asking “Are We There Yet” while kicking the back of your seat. Thanks for the good laugh

  10. Great post. More proof that everyone in every job has to answer inane questions. I get something similar when I’m working on my projects here at the newspaper. If it’s late or coming close to the deadline I get asked how much longer it’s going to take me to get done. Usually I don’t know because the reason it isn’t done yet is because of unforeseeable issues. And the conversation continues. After about five minutes of the other person basically rephrasing the question “when is it going to be done?” I want to say, “Well we’ve been talking for five minutes and I haven’t been able to work on it while you’ve been talking so it is going to take five minutes longer than it was going to take. Thanks.”

    I usually don’t say that. Thanks for sharing.

    Crystal

  11. Not boring at all! Take it from someone who boards the plane with all her fingernails, and de-planes with stubs for fingers, the more information the better! (You must know that us terrified flyers sit in our seats and imagine the plane breaking apart piece by piece when we feel the bumps and also imagine the flight crew looking through the book that comes with the aircraft to frantically find out how to fix it.)

    This should be required reading for all passengers instead of that stupid tri-fold thingy with the pictures of people happily floating in the water with their seat cushions.

  12. Now that is what I call clarification!!!I am a finicky flyer when it comes to turbulence. I don’t phone…I simply pray. Thanks for giving us flyers the logistics of the situation. My hat’s off to you!

  13. Thanks for the explanation.

  14. I was flying to Mexico (I had studied down there for a bit) and it was one of the WORST storms ever. The plane was literally jumping up and down (so it felt like) and I was terrified. The only thing I could do was put on my earphones and pray because I just knew this would not turn out good. Thankfully, as you can see, I made it out alive and am VERY happy lol. Thanks for sharing the post…

  15. Great post!
    With a son who is a student pilot bumming around ina tee-shirt that says “Bad Altitude” and buzzing our house on Sundays when he’s not at his “real job”.
    We can’t resist waving at the little Cessna puttering overhead.
    I like the pilot’s eye view.
    When I rode with my boy I thought the turb was his way of making mom quesy, little bit of showing off.
    Nice to hear there is meaning to the madness.
    Carry on good pilot and may all your days be fine and skies be blue.
    gmom

  16. I am a Xanax enabled flier. Without the stuff, I’d be keeping your airline aloft with alcohol sales. I read this piece and basically thought of all the places where something could go wrong. I guess I’ve watched a few too many episodes of “Flying Cheap” on Frontline or shows like that.

    It all started on a flight in tornado alley with some *really* bad turbulence. The captain came on the PA system and told the flight attendants to secure the cabin. To me, his tone was alarmed, and it scared the hell out of me. The turbulence was indeed *really bad* although after the flight the captain said, “oh, that wasn’t really that bad. I’ve been through much worse”. Comforting words but to this day I still hate getting on an airplane.

  17. 🙂 Good post–wasn’t bored at all. I liked reading the comments too.

  18. I love the ATC pic – totally reminds me of Nav Canada. 🙂

  19. blackwatertown Says:

    Re engrmuh – no it wasn’t.
    Especially the (other) challenging comments you have to cope with.

  20. Nice screengrab of Sabre’s flight planning software. Those highways look like Colorado, Denver Metro, but I don’t believe that to be the case.

  21. I loved this post, thank you Freshly Pressed! And yes, the flight attendants do have to call the cockpit. That way, grumpy and/or nervous passengers like me can feel like somebody’s doing something! 🙂

  22. This is a nice educational post, not at all boring. I have friends and family members who used to be fighter pilots – they never explain things like you do because they’re either too terse or too verbose

    Umm, cousin of mine (ex-fighter pilot) says there IS a need to avoid turbulence and find smooth air because turbulence also wastes fuel. True?

    Oh, BTW, congrats on being Freshly Pressed!

  23. Did you just beat up on LaGuardia? I assume that’s what you meant by LaGarbage. Tell me why everyone hates that place! As a passenger, I’ve never had a problem with it. In fact, back in September during the storm which spawned a suspected tornado, JFK cancelled all its flights. I was offered the opportunity to fly out the next afternoon. Instead, I cabbed it to LaGuardia, grabbed a flight, and got home only an hour later than originally planned. Did I mention I LOVE that place?
    Sorry for the post-jacking. What I meant to say all this time was: Coffin corner? Fuel burn? Speed buffet? Who can remember all that? That’s why I never became a pilot. Yes. That must be it.
    Personally, I love the hell out of turbulence. Livens up the most boring flights. The next best thing is sitting next to a talkative pilot on his way to wherever. I’ve gotten an earful a couple of times. And on a bumpy flight, I don’t get worried until they look worried.
    Happy landings! – Jen

  24. Oh dear god, I don’t think I needed to know all that! Great post, and I’m a great flyer, but the whole running out of fuel thing never crossed my mind before during turbulence….it will now though….

    Glad you told the FA’s like it is..

  25. I’m wondering if the FAs call just so that the passengers will feel reassured by seeing them “taking steps”.

  26. […] Can we talk for a minute? I mean crew to crew? If you're not flightcrew, this may be boring. Sorry. But still, let's talk about not talking for a minute. Here's the deal: We're flying along fat dumb and happy. Then, it gets bumpy. I turn the seatbelt sign on. What do you NOT do? Or more accurately, what do I wish you wouldn't do? Call the cockpit. Seriously. What we get more often than not these days is, bumps, then ding-ding. "It's for you," I s … Read More […]

  27. Wow. That was a lot of good information I never knew. Whenever there’s turbulence, trust me, I’m not wasting any time putting my seat belt on . I just like to leave it on anyways for as long as I can because you never know. I guess there are irritating things and dumb questions with every job.
    Interesting post!!

  28. That’s why I flew freight – boxes don’t bitch when it gets bumpy. Congrats on being freshly pressed!

    • I always wonder when I hear FEDEX or UPS jets requesting a smoother altitude–why? The boxes don’t notice.

      • They’re pansies. You probably haven’t ever heard a Starcheck ask. ;D

        Although, I do have to admit asking for a better ride once after I hit my head on the overhead panel. I’m short and my belt wasn’t loose and I was too annoyed to give a hoot about what the boxes wanted. Plus, if I found a smoother ride, I could go faster.

  29. I thought this was hilarious!! Spent minutes writing a comment last night, and then my blackberry went all crazy on me. So here is the thought.
    Congrats on being freshly pressed! Going to take a squizz around!
    Xx

  30. Lovely post. I love the annotations with the various pictures. Great job

  31. Do you think AF 447 GIG to CDG June 1,2010, an Airbus A330-200, that was in severe turbulence break apart in the air or did the pilots, because of instrument errors, stall this plane into the Atlantic Ocean? And….Congratulations for being Freshly Pressed.

  32. Captain –

    Stumbled across your blog and it’s simply great. As a high-time SEL private pilot who should have gone commercial, but didn’t cause I was stupid and now too old, I can live it through you. For now I just putt around the islands in Hawaii.

    Thanks for great reading and keeping me in touch with one of the great jobs – even with all its problems today.
    Aloha,
    Honolulu Notes
    http://www.honolulunote.com

  33. In my mid-twenties, I realized that I was supposed to be a pilot. By then I had been taught to hate and fear math by a few teachers who didn’t understand it themselves. That, coupled with a lack of funds, means I’ve been a passenger on a plane 5 times, but will probably never fly one myself. (I always hate to say never!)

    I was not bored one bit by this post! It reminded me of the time I stumbled upon a channel on the in-flight radio on a trip back home the last time, that let me hear every communication between the cockpit and the ground, and what seemed to be another plane. I was in heaven for a couple of hours, and waiting for the landing conversationn — when it all stopped. I was very let down, but I guess it makes sense to cut it off there. Anyway, I’d never heard of that before, and I’ve been waiting for over fifteen years to get back on a plane and settle back again for a listen.

    Thanks for this post. I’ve bookmarked your blog to make sure that I can find you again!

    Ré

    • Math almost did me in too–but although many pilots do a bazillion formulas to effect a maneuver, I use TLAR: That Looks About Right. Works fine, art triumphs over science.

  34. Dr. Asoka Dissanayake Says:

    Good One.
    I had a bumpy ride like this for 3 hours and we landed 45 minutes early at Singapore.
    Worse of all it was a Sri-Lankan plane loaned to SA which were grounded for testing.
    Flying cost was half and the fright was multiples of halves and one and a half.
    I am going to ride about it now you have given me clues for Air Traffic Control and physics and physicals of flying.
    Read my blog Flying Officer grounded at asokaplus two days ago

  35. Certainly worth the read. My girlfriend and I both enjoyed my reading of it and we can’t wait to call the flight attendant to ask for coffee at that time. 😉

  36. SO not boring!

    I am an avid traveler but have to do a lot of deep breathing in turbulence, even though I know the pilots are smart and experienced and doing your bloody best! On a 10 hr flight from Taipei to SF, I had an hr of ugly turbulence at the halfway point. It has made me fearful to cross the Pacific again, which is a real shame.

    I can never decide whether to learn more details or buckle up and just pray. I once (sorry, Cap’n) asked a pilot leaving the plane to “tell me something reassuring” about turbulence and, with great pride, he told me that most jet wings can safely move up and down something like four feet….Um, not exactly reassuring to this civilian!

  37. acrankywomansview Says:

    very informative and interesting post! Well written too 😉 If I ever become a stewardess I’ll remember not to call unless I have a better question than “when’s it gonna be over?”

  38. Charlie T Says:

    I enjoyed reading this and on behalf of my flying partners who do not realize this may be an issue, apologize.

    That being said, please not that the reverse phone call 45 minutes into the flight, or more in terms of our timeline – mid-servic…e for a restroom break or worse, to start meals in our ONE oven that is only halfway through the meal cycle and hasn’t even started rolls or cookies can be rather frustrating as well.

    Plus, I am relatively certain that, on a seldom occassion, it is forgotten to turn the seat belt sign back off. It is rather tiring after a good period of smooth ride, to continuously tell every passenger that disobeys the sign that it is on only to receive a snide remark or dirty look in return.

    All in all, I think your intention is to inform us and for that I do thank you and appreciate it. I will make a more conscious effort to deter this interruption from myself and my flying partners.See More

    • I agree with everything except the bathroom break part: if we need to, we do, and it’s a physiological thing, not optional. If we could come out without requiring additional manpower, we would. And I seldom do because it’s such a hassle. But if a pilot needs to, it’s a priority, not a convenience item.

  39. I never knew you could call the cockpit…never done that before…

    Great post!! Nice to hear from an insider.

  40. hello i love your website

  41. Loool!! but omg i never knew being a flight attendant was so complicated!

  42. Me again…just curious…what does your “MDB” say about all of this? Hmmm…after all these years, maybe she just ignores you (as most DB’s do) 🙂 🙂 🙂

    • Yeah, she kind of ignores the blog. But I do a lot of other writing which she’s helpful in critique and suggestions. And that’s a two-way street: she’s in grad school and I return the favor by helping with her writing the same way. Which is a good investment in her reading my dissertation and offering suggestions, which I’ll do for her when she starts hers. So we’re kind of a reading and writing intensive couple and if she had to skip anything, the blog would be my choice.

      And she’s had 12 years as a flight attendant–she knows the type who do “stream of consciousness” type yammering on a crew. She never was that type but like most flight attendants, can along with just about anyone.

      • I admire the work FA’s have to do…and always with a smile (which I know is hard to do sometimes).

        There are those yammering types in ALL professions. Again, just keep that smile fixed on your face. 🙂

        “reading and writing intensive couple”–then yours is a soulful union.

        Keep writing! We enjoy it!

  43. wow … awesome post. Thank you for the info. Im not crew but I do fly the friendly skies often.

  44. Oh Bless You!

    I frequently find myself stuffed in a seat on a crowded flight trying hard to do nothing but read my book, listen to my music and play my games. I figure I can either trust the pilot or learn to fly. 🙂

    I’m grateful for F/A’s and Pilots who have a sense of humor. You’ll know me as the woman who has her eyes glued to the pre-flight safety briefing before EVERY flight. So the humor that breaks up the demonstration of how a seat belt works is much appreciated.

    As for turbulence – I am much more at ease now knowing what goes in to dealing with it. Instead I’ll take my eyes off my book and do my best to enjoy the ride!

  45. And I’m the Greek Blonde Girl back there who is white knuckling every bump…thanks for letting me a glimpse inside your mind.

    Blessings,

    Ava
    xox

  46. […] blog is his post asking cabin crew not to call him as soon as the plane hits some turbulence (link here): We’re flying along fat dumb and happy. Then, it gets bumpy. I turn the seatbelt sign on. What […]

  47. Now I understand the turbulance thing. I really don’t like to fly but to hear the cap’s story about turbulance I understand the logic of staying in turbulance for a while and not nosediving as a quick remedy.

  48. Good One.
    I had a bumpy ride like this for 3 hours and we landed 45 minutes early at Singapore.

  49. Hi Chris

    Great post, both informative and entertaining. I’m not a great flyer unless I’m sat next to the pilot… it’s the whole idea of being in a ‘toothpaste’ and with an ignorance of what is going on up front that causes me concern on commercial flights. Also, I always seem to fly to F/A who look more scared than the passengers :o)

    Best Wishes
    Teddy.

  50. Lots of trivia there…
    I haven’t had to face a really turbulent flight yet but there was this one time I got a headache with the noise. =)

  51. Wow! I obviously know very little about flying, but I never would have thought it would take that much work just to adjust altitude. Can’t believe the stewards/stewardesses would be complaining about the ride though…I mean, Mother Nature is known to be unpredictable!

  52. Interesting blog. You know what? I follow the rules and listen to the Captain and crew. They are the ones who are trying to safely propel me (and at times friends and family), through the friendly skies via a large and heavy, metal tube without incident. I sure as heck can’t fly it if something happens, so cooperation of the passengers ranks high on my check-list.

    There have been far too many times that I have seen disrespectful passengers do some strange things during a flight. What it boils down to is: ‘most’ passengers, regardless of differences, share one common goal which is making it to their destination safely. Acrobats, alcoholics, neurotic individuals, the unbathed, folks with flatulence, screaming children and everything in between – really matter not, so long as I can complete a safe voyage.

    Tough job you have, even if may be a little circus-ish at times. Keep up the good work and oh…THANK YOU!

  53. […] Turbulence: A Moment of Silence, Please. (jethead.wordpress.com) […]

  54. Chris,
    Thanks for your notes on turbulence. I am a flight attendant and knew these things from taking flying lessons myself. The majority of men and women doing this job however, are completely unaware of the process required when a flight happens to come across unexpected turbulence. I have worked with those who really should understand this by now based on years of service, and have watched some get downright ugly that they should have been warned etc. I try to educate in a non know-it-all fashion, but I think just continuing to share the knowledge is key to reducing your frustrations and that of some unnamed F/As as well.
    Wishing you clear skies ahead!

    Sunny

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