Pilot Report: Boeing 737 vs. McDonnell-Douglas MD-80
Now that I have nearly a thousand hours in the left seat of the Boeing 737-800, and having as well over 15,000 in the MD-80, I feel qualified to make some judgments about how the two stack up against each other.
For me, there’s one hands-down winner. I’ll get to that.
But first, looking at it from a hands-on pilot perspective, let me say what I think are the crucial factors in both jets, then compare them. And I’ll do it in order of importance from my line-swine pilot view:
1. Power: never mind the technology difference between the General Electric JT8D turbo fans on the Maddog and the CFM-56 high-bypass fans on the 737. It’s the thrust difference I want in my right hand when I’m trying to lift 170,000 pounds off a runway. And technology aside (I’ll get to that), the three full power options (22,000, 24,000, and 26,000 pounds of thrust) plus the bonus kick up to 27,000 pounds per engine on the 737 for special use beats the snot out of the 19,000 flat rated and standard de-rated engines on the MD-80. Yes, the -80 weighs less than the 737 (max of 150,000 vs. 174,000 pounds), and no, I don’t have each plane makers’ specs, but the thrust-to-weight performance from the left seat feels substantially more secure and significant from the 737.

You notice that right away when you do a static takeoff with the 737 at all weights: you’ve got buttloads of giddyup (I think engineers call it “acceleration,” but then they don’t actually feel it on paper versus in the cockpit blasting forward–that’s “a buttload of giddyup”) shortening those critical moments of vulnerability between brake release and V1.

I have no idea what engineers think of when they look at thrust and take-off advantages, but any pilot with experience knows that those seconds before reaching flying speed are the most vulnerable, particularly close to max abort speed, because I’d rather take any problems into the air than have to wrestle them to a stop on a runway. The MD-80 has good smash at mid to light weights, but in crucial situations (Mexico City, for example, or on a short runway on a hot day) the 737′s CFM56′s rule. I need the shortest possible period of on-runway vulnerability; I know engine hot-section limits and longterm life are important too, but the CFM56 achieves better on-wing engine endurance in operation than the JT8Ds, year over year.
Ditto for a go-around or windshear options: the MD-80 is famous for it’s slow acceleration–I’ve been there MANY times–and when you’re escaping from windshear or terrain, I can promise you the pucker factor of the “one, Mississippi, two Mississippi” on up to six to eight seconds will have your butt chewing up the seat cushion like horse’s lips. Not sure if that’s due to the neanderthal 1970′s vintage hydro-mechanical fuel control (reliably simple–but painstakingly slow to spool) or the natural limitation of so many rotor stages. But the 737′s solid state EICAS computers reading seventy-teen parameters and trimming the CFMs accordingly seem to give the performance a clear edge. And a fistful of 737-800 throttles beats the same deal on the Maddog, period. Advantage, Boeing.

2. Wing: let me go back in time. I also flew the F-100 for a couple years as captain. That was a great jet, with a simple wing: no leading edge devices. Coming from jets with slats the feel was clearly different on take-off, where there was a distinct (if you’re a seat-of-the-pants guy, and that’s all I’ve ever been) translational period between rotate and lift-off due to the hard wing. Ditto in the flare and in some reversals in flight like on a go-around. Not a bad thing, just something you had to anticipate, but not a warm-fuzzy in the seat of your aerodynamic pants.

Stretched jet, stretched wing.
That’s a good analogy between the Boeing versus the Douglas wing: you feel the generous lift margin in the 737. That’s because when Boeing stretched the jet to the -800 length, they expanded the wing as well. That wing was already loaded much lighter than the DC-9 wing which Douglas didn’t enlarge when they added to two fuselage plugs plus about 15,000 pounds to the MD-80. Longer and with better cambered (look at the DC-10, and no dihedral) airfoil is the Boeing design and I’m grateful for their foresight and superior engineering–especially at the top end of the performance envelope: you need anti-ice? No problem–turn it on. The Maddog? Better be 2,000 feet below optimum, or prepare for stall recovery–and anyone on the -80 fleet knows I’m not exagerating. Wing performance? No contest: Boeing.

3. Handling: again let me go back in time. Flew the T-37 like every new Air Force pilot up until recently–then moved on to the T-38. Using standard Tweet inputs on The Rocket would bang your helmet off the canopy because of the boosted flight controls, giving you 720 degrees of roll in a second at full deflection.
That’s the 737 compared to the MD-80: no aileron boost on the -80, and little help from the powered rudder–because of the long fuselage length and relatively short moment arm between the vertical fin and the MAC (Mean Aerodynamic Chord), the rudder seems to only impart a twisting moment that’s pretty useless. So it’s a wrestling match for roll control, in and out of turns with the -80.

I still tend to over control the 737 in acute roll situations (e.g., the 30 degree offset final at 300′ AGL required in and out of DCA) due to previous brain damage caused by years of arm wrestling the MD-80 around tight corners. But with the 737, the seat-of-the-pants security of that generous wing is apparent at all speed and altitudes and the hydraulic aileron boost gives you the muscle to command a smooth and prompt response. Handling? It’s all 737 for me, including on the ground: new MD-80 captains will need Ibuprofen to counter the wrist strain of the nosewheel steering, two-handed in tight spots. I don’t miss that at all.

4. Cockpit layout: okay, give the -80 its due–that was one comfortable nest once you got settled. But that’s as far as it goes for me. Yes, I know the 737 kitbag position is inaccessible. But American Airlines is the first airline certified by the FAA for iPad use from the ground to altitude. Kitbag, what’s a kitbag?

MD-80 left seat–HSI? Where is it?
Trade-off? The MD-80 HSI is obscured by the control yoke. Are you kidding me? Like you might need lateral situational awareness for trivia like, navigating? Flying an approach? I spent 20+ years working around that human factors engineering failure–I’m grateful for the Boeing engineers who gave me seven 9″ CRT flat plate displays with every parameter I could want displayed digitally and God bless them all–a Heads Up Display! Lord have mercy, even a simpleton has a crosscheck in that jet thanks to the God of HUD.

The 737 doesn’t have the elbow room you might like and everyone who I fly with who has come off the big Boeings (757, 767, 777) gripes about that. Fine. I’m all about performance and the flight displays, computers, communications and advanced Flight Management Systems in the 737 avionics suite beat the pants off of the 75 and 76–and the HUD tops the 777 as well. Nuff said: gimme the Guppy cockpit over the Maddog. Boeing put everything I need at my fingertips, and it’s all state-of-the-art, whereas Douglas engineers threw everything they could everywhere in the cockpit and slammed the door.

My 737 home.
So there you have it: power, wing, handling and even by a narrow margin, the cockpit too. I’m a Boeing guy, back from wayward days flying Douglas metal from the DC-10 to the MD-80. In my experience as a pilot, in my hours in both Boeing and Douglas jets, I’m grateful to be flying the best jets in the sky. Now you know which are which.

December 17, 2011 at 8:24 pm
Great discussion. Many of us extreme amateurs nevertheless suck up tecnhical discussions of this nature (i.e. written in an understandable manner). This is at least the fourth time I have heard this preference expressed by pilots, so I must ask the question–why so many MD-80′s in the fleets? Price, life expectancy, payload, fuel efficiency, what is it? Any company that produced the DC-10 is just WRONG.
December 17, 2011 at 8:38 pm
The MD-80 was an efficient competitor with the 727, the other main narrow body jet in the late 70s, as well as the early versions of the 737 which also used the General Electric JT8D engines. With 2 engines rather than 3 like the 727, the -80 was quieter and more fuel efficient, comparatively, despite the other drawbacks I mentioned.
But that all changed when Boeing engineered the next generations of the 737, plus Airbus entered the narrowbody market with more efficient and advanced jets, as did Fokker.
AA ordered over 250 MD80s, making it the Ford Escort of the jet age. But time has passed it by, as has better aeronautical engineering. The last AA -80s were built in 1991, so they’re largely paid for, helping to offset their operating costs in the short term. But they’re past their usefulness in almost every other criteria.
Plus, as far as avionics, they’re completely a bastardized patchwork barely capable of maintaining nav and RVSM standards.
I’d say the MD-80 had a good run. But its time has passed, which is why AA is refleeting with new Boeing and Airbus jets.
Chris
Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon the typos.
December 17, 2011 at 8:52 pm
…and of course, as expected, the answer is economics. Too bad we sheep can’t pick the aircraft we want to fly on. In regard to MCD, I’ve flown on several DC-3s in relatively remote areas, and they’re still cutting the mustard. I think things went downhill from there though.
Thanks, Chris!
December 17, 2011 at 9:06 pm
I really liked the DC-10 from a hands-on flying standpoint: lots of power, great flight control boost. Handled great even in and out of LaGuardia, actually easier than the MD-80 in the same circumstances.
But the design was flawed: the #2 engine required fuel boost pumps to function–in an electrical failure, you were guaranteed to enjoy an engine failure as well.
Chris
Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon the typos.
December 17, 2011 at 9:11 pm
Well, YOU, would know. That tail engine looked like something of an afterthought to me. As a passenger, I always hoped there was an ample supply of duct tape onboard.
December 17, 2011 at 9:29 pm
Another great post and thanks. I guess Boeing kept the B73 in the game by updating it, where MD just quit. (Well, there were later versions, but nothing to write home about…) From the perespective of a regular SLC, I too am a B73 fan as it is FAR more comfortable than the MD-80. Ive been known to change flights to avoid the MD-80+ series. I think Bill Boeing would like you. Yup, I knew that you had a lot of MD-80 time on your personal clock, but 15K hours is truly sad and I;m glad that you finally enjoying your current office. Happy Holidays to ‘ya. -Craig
December 17, 2011 at 9:42 pm
That’s the key: Boeing redesigned, Douglas just stretched the fuselage and ignored the wing. Not a longterm way to think.
Plus the difference between the computing components are reflected in the operation–737 autothrottles are much more advanced than the 70′s tech 80 system, reliable all the way to touchdown. And you can feel it in back–when the MD80 levels off, if it’s a couple knots slow it’ll plaster everyone to their seats overcompensating.
Chris
Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon the typos.
December 17, 2011 at 9:30 pm
Can’t wait to hear your Airbus vs Boeing comparison in a couple years hehe
As always a great blog read!
December 17, 2011 at 9:34 pm
Not me–sticking with Boeing: 777 is my next captain’s job, maybe late next year. And we’re getting 787s too.
I’m sure the new Airbus jets will be fun to fly, but I’m going with Boeing.
Chris
Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon the typos.
December 18, 2011 at 5:02 am
Haha, if it ain’t Boeing, I’m not going! Great post Captain, loved to read that comparison. So because the DC-10 (And later on the MD-11) has an engine that is ‘up’ on the tail it needs boost bumps? Never thought of that but it makes sense. It would be awesome to hear a 737 Vs. 777 (or 787!) from you in a couple of years.
It’s fun to read all those little details you don’t find in books or other websites…just a real ‘pilot’s report’.
Bas
December 18, 2011 at 7:48 am
Yes, the center engine on the DC-10 was up so high that fuel would not gravity feed. The 727 and L-1011 both had center engines mounted low enough to gravity feed; the DC-10 supposedly was a rushed design intended to be ready to compete with the L-1011 which from what I hear from those who flew it was the better aircraft.
The DC-10 had a lot of weird electronic gremlins too. The standard fix was “turn it off, pull and reset the circuit breakers, see what it does.” something you’d never do nowadays.
Chris
Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon the typos.
December 18, 2011 at 9:19 am
I just made the switch from the MD-80 to 737 this summer and the difference is amazing. It’s as if you’ve been on a desert island making do while the rest of the airline industry moved into 21st century jet technology. Now I see why the MD80 flying was a bad idea–there are so many state of the art things in vertical nav and even point to point that the controllers expect from a flight that the MD-80 really can’t legitiamtely do with its half-assed single GFMS and ancient autopilot (for example, the > 90 intercepts in Mexico, or extensions off a waypoint behind you). Glad I’ve finally gotten off of that fleet. Good blog entry.
December 18, 2011 at 9:48 am
Agreed–the MD-80 is barely making do in many ATC situations. I recall it being standard to consider crosswinds carefully on RNAV departures in the MD-80: if the crosswind was > 20 or 25, you’d have to seriously consider requesting the non-RNAV departure because if the Jurassic Jet autopilot and first generation flight guidance strayed, you were on the hook for a violation.
I also wanted to be sure to bid off of the MD-80 fleet before it shrank to the point where displaced -80 pilots would take up all of the training slots on the new jets. Then, like the 727 and F-100, the senior pilots will be stuck with a dwindling, crappy bidsheet until the fleet eventually vanishes. Poor quality of life and a smaller paycheck. You’re wise to “git” while there are more 737 vacancies than MD-80 replacements. There will be plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth of MD-80 pilots soon when that ratio flip flops due to MD-80 aircraft retirements and they’ll wish they’d transferred when they had the opportunity. Who saw that coming?
December 18, 2011 at 9:55 am
Captain …
Now at the risk of sounding like an A** kisser … another literary masterpiece!
I think your posts should be mandatory reading at Embry-Riddle, UND and the undergraduate pilot training programs of the Military etc. They would without a doubt help “swing the compasses” so-to-speak of aspiring aviators trying to break the code of “pilot think” into something they can grasp and hold onto. Your communication of “seat of the pants” stuff into “yeah … thats it” is out of the ordinary to say the least. Sort of like one peek is worth a thousand crosschecks.
Reminds me of a time long ago when I was seat-filling in the left seat of a Braniff B-727 simulator with one of the finest training Captains I have ever shared a cockpit with who was earning his pay attempting to transition a 17 year F/E into a co-pilot. It was WTFO from the moment I let go of the tiller on the centerline and the hapless trainee touched the controls. It was what I imagine first-time bull riding must be like until the steady reassuring voice of the Captain took over. For example, after a 30 to 40 minute period of air work the Blue Angels couldn’t hang onto, one ILS approach brought us to minimums on the centerline. Not a bad place to be except we were in a 90 degree bank. What did the instructor quietly say after freezing the sim and bringing the visibility to VFR to help illustrate his point? “Son, there’s something you don’t ever want to see.”
Well said!
December 18, 2011 at 12:39 pm
Excellent story! As a Check Airman, watching some crews get themselves all tangled up in faulty recognition and incorrect procedures, even during a check more than once I’d freeze the sim and say, “Now, just take a minute to think about this: where are you, what are you doing, and why?” Usually, when they stopped fighting their own perception, ignoring the seat of their pants in favor of what they thought was supposed to happen or what they thought they were supposed to do, they could finally get back to the reality of what’s going on and what actually must be done. “Okay, got an idea of what’s going on here? We’re coming off freeze . . .” Of course, a pilot has to figure that out in the sim: get your head in the game, fly the jet–never mind what’s “supposed” to be happening, because there ain’t no “freeze” in flight.
December 18, 2011 at 4:01 pm
Heck Yes! Some poor soul once said something like, ‘… above all else, fly the damn airplane…’ As for the 17-year B727 FE upgrading, FO, oh so long ago, I guess I know that FEs were not required to be ‘pilots.’ Was there some requirement that they have at least a few hours and maybe a commercial ticket before they moved up to FO? I cannot believe that the ‘airline’ became responsible for their basic stick and rudder training. What am I missing? As for the sim training, it sounds a lot like comments from junior A320 pilots, “…what’s it doing now…? The answer is: “Know what it’s doing and why – and before your fly the sob. Lastly, (and please comment on this…) I know a semi-senior B767 FO at AA, one whose seniority has been abused for 8-9 years. He’s thinking about an upgrade to MD-80 Captain in late 2012. With the MD-80 almost gone, is this a smart move or… For this fellow, Quality of Life is important. Is he shooting himself in the foot? Regards, – C.
December 18, 2011 at 8:18 pm
As for the 17 year F/E I described, I never got to know him personally but was briefed beforehand that he was struggling and I needed to assist when a checklist called for it but to otherwise sit on my hands. I recall he was once a pilot at NAS Dallas before coming to BN. As was expected, his new-hire seniority dictated that he begin in the F/E seat and work his to a window seat which was pretty much standard with all carriers who flew three pilot cockpits. His problem, by his own admission, was that he spent way too many years eating the chicken and otherwise enjoying his 727 & DC-8 F/E seniority without ever touching the flight controls of anything for that period of time. His skills deteriorated badly and he was paying the price. I am not sure he completed the upgrade which incidentally, he bid.
My first point in telling this particular story was not to criticize another aviator. It was to illustrate my feeling that Captain Manno’s comparison/contrast of the MD-80 (which I have 12,000 hours in) vs. the 737-800 evoked meaningful memories of the demeanor and steady as you go educational value I appreciated so much from my long-ago experience with Braniff Captain John Key.
My second point was simply that young aspiring aviators should be exposed to the skillful educators in our midst early and often.
Make sense?
BTW, in my opinion, an MD-80 left seat upgrade for a long-term 767 right seater who may have been avoiding it is not the ideal scenario unless (as Strother Martin would say) his/her “mind is right.”
December 22, 2011 at 9:59 am
Makes a lot of sense. We have an “up or out” policy here as you know: upgrade to captain successfully–or termination. After successful upgrade, you can move backwards (why would you?) if you like (even the worst day as captain is better than the best day as F/O) and some do.
But I too can recall the case of a former F-16 pilot who had been cruising too long in the right seat of a 767; never learned how to lead a crew. He had the world’s longest captain upgrade program, the company bent over backwards giving him extra training, but the FAA eventually pulled the plug on him.
To your point about the MD-80 high workload, I remember when I checked out as MD-80 captain (1991) looking over at the F/O in a flurry of activity. I thought at the time, “Huh–guess that’s all the stuff I should have been doing when I was an F/O.” You’re right: that’s one hopelessly, needlessly busy cockpit.
December 24, 2011 at 12:57 pm
As a passenger usually flying AA, I have a different view. The MD80 has some advantages. Every MD80 flight has taken me safely without diversion to my destination even if it is not as powerful and has outdated avionics. Thanks to the crew. I chose my most recent flight on AA from DFW partly because it was the MD80.
Seating in economy is 2 and 3 so I have less chance to get a not so desirable middle seat. Seats in economy seem wider on the MD80 than 737. It is easier to get a seat in front of the wing to see the ground better. If one sits in front of the wing on the MD80, engine noise is lower than on the 737.
But I agree with safety, economy, and ease of use. AA will inevitably retire the MD80.
On another note, is bidding for a 757 or 767 a good idea for an AA 737 Captain? Does a bigger plane pay better than a 737? Or does the age of the 757 and 767 mean they will be phased out too soon and make the change too short to make the switch?
Or does a Captain only change to another aircraft because his seniority makes him eligible for that aircraft.
December 24, 2011 at 2:06 pm
I get your point about less middle seats. But the cabin is smaller all around and their is no passenger entertainment on MD-80s. Plus, the air conditioning, a major comfort item, is ancient and doesn’t work very well, especially in temps over 80 degrees.
Diversions I believe have more to do with situations than aircraft types or crews. I flew the MD-80 for 20+ years and did my fair share of diversions for the right reasons.
Widebodies? Well yes, slightly higher pay rates, but less flying hours per month so actually less pay. I’m senior enough to hold a decent 757-767 schedule, but there’s less flying available and their fleet is shrinking while our 737 fleet gets a brand new jet every other week.
January 11, 2012 at 8:29 am
Well said, Captain. The MD-80 has always been merely a DC-9 in disguise. Same systems, same problems, just a little quieter and definitely awkward to fly after they lengthened it. No real increase in technology, just added some band aids and changed the name.
I told that to American management when they started to buy them (but after the initial very large order) and I was a test pilot for McDonnell Douglas. I was an AA pilot when they started to buy the new 737s but didn’t get to say I told you so. Perhaps MD did not appreciate my candor.
On the other hand, the DC-10 was a fine piece of equipment. Maybe DC built better than MD. It doesn’t matter, it’s all Boeing now.
While I’m at it, Airbus is trying to engineer the pilot out of the aircraft with automatic systems. I objected to that before the A-320 was rolled out, and it hasn’t worked out well for them. Does that make me old fashioned or just right? Bottom line: if it ain’t Boing, I ain’t going…
January 11, 2012 at 10:52 am
I agree–I always thought the DC-10 was a great hand-flying jet, probably the best handling large jet I ever flew. That’s until the 737, which truly is easily the best hand-flying jet I’ve ever flown.
The MD-80 had its day back in the 80s when it was new, 20-30% more fuel efficient than the reigning narrow-body (727), “quieter” too. Now the 737 design and engineering has so greatly surpassed the MD-80 that it makes sense to phase them out and replace them with 737s, IMO.
I’m sure Airbus has its pluses, but like you, I plan to stick with Boeing myself.
January 11, 2012 at 12:02 pm
Airbus has better systems displays, and that’s about it.
The DC-10 is, of course, a heavy jet, not just a large one, and I could agree that it is the best handling heavy. But I think some of the B-767s are heavy now, and they fly just fine too. My other heavies include the B-52, KC-135, and the A-300. The B-52 is easily the worst to handle.
January 11, 2012 at 12:11 pm
I never flew the 757/767–my widebody F/O time was on the DC-10, then I went to the left seat of the MD80 for over 20 years, with 2 years off for good behavior to fly the F-100, then back to the MD-80 till 2009 when I went to the 737.
But the story of improvement is the story of Boeing: the 707 was the transition from props to the jet age. The flight controls being “flying” flight control surfaces positioned by tabs and counter-balances was the theory of the prop era and it worked for the early jets too, albeit less responsively that today’s powered ailerons. But that’s where MD stopped–the MD80 is that old reliable but sluggish tab and balance system even though the MD-80 is so much larger and heavier than the original DC9-10 from which it’s derived.
But Boeing improved the wing and powered the flight controls on the Next Gen 737s. All the difference in the world in engineering and flying.
January 26, 2012 at 4:12 pm
As a passenger, I have another perspective to offer. I very much prefer MD-80 over 7x7s as I *swear* they handle turbulence better and just seem to be smoother flying aircraft. All technical specifications aside, I’d rather fly on an MD-80 than a Boeing 7×7. To me, its the difference between taking a road trip in a Ferrari vs. a 1987 Chrysler New Yorker. Sure the Ferrari is sexier and more powerful than the New Yorker…But I’ll take the plush smooth ride over the power and beauty when my ass has to be cramped next to some 250 pound guy who smells like crisco and stale cigarettes for three hours. JMO….then again, maybe that’s the smell of a plane as old as most MD-80′s are…Either way, I like the MD-80… Or the CRJ700. That little plane kicks butt. It’s also smoother than a 7×7. Ok, I just hate Boeing. Yes their products will get you there in one piece…they just leave you with the impression that you were lucky to do so.
January 26, 2012 at 4:43 pm
That’s actually pretty funny, “all technical aspects aside,” which essentially overlooks all things aerodynamic. Like the wing loading, so no, the MD80 doesn’t handle turbulence better; and no, the MD80′s thrust-to-weight ratio isn’t even close to the 737′s–and the MD80 cabin size, headroom and environmental controls and pressurization systems aren’t nearly as good or effective as the Boeing. Plus, it’s low-function, high load wing and old JT8D-219 engines confines it to lower altitudes, so instead of going over the nasty weather by climbing to 41,000′, you have to pick your way and bump your way around or through it in the low 30,000s.
And the navigation, engine controls and unpowered flight controls are thirty years out of date, make it handle like a dumptruck and have slowly degraded the reliability of the aircraft.
But hey, glad the old Long Beach Sewer Pipe still has fans, even though they’re slowly making their way to the boneyard for a well-deserved retirement.
January 28, 2012 at 12:30 pm
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March 7, 2012 at 1:30 pm
An excellent and fascinating read. I agree with all of the readers’ comments about a tech discussion being accessible for those of us who are big aviation fans w/o the benefit of experience.
My home airport is KPWM which sees daily DAL MD88s. I had my first flight on one last year… From the perspective of an aviation fan, I enjoyed the sounds, the thrown against the seat feeling… The MD88 fully loaded uses the majority of the runway with the JT8D buzz saws roaring. I was flying with my family, none of whom are aviation buffs, and I did echo their sentiments from a passenger’s perspective- loud, old, worn down, and fully loaded you felt completely packed in… AC was subpar… I was happy to switch to the 752 when we got at KATL.
I would be interested in hearing your perspective on the E-Jets… My most recent flight was on a Republic operated E170 and it was night and day as a passenger (not surprisingly), my biggest complaint with the 170 being the offset windows…
Your input from the inside is appreciated!!!
March 7, 2012 at 1:35 pm
I’ve actually never been on any of the E jets.